Election 2019



  • And if we can control our own borders maybe that 99.99% of NHS staff won't be overburdened dealing with more clients than is humanly possible.

    I live in East Yorkshire, we have a really low immigration rate around here. Growing up, the only non-white people in my town were nurses, doctors and takeaway owners. We had 3 black kids in the entire school and a chap everyone in town refers to as black-Pete... thats how white this town is.

    Yet we've had our hospital decimated. Our doctors surgeries are restricted time appointments, anyone in our town who needs the hospital ends up 20 miles out of town or 50 miles out of town because the hospital here where I live (which was only built at the back end of the 90's) has been stripped of funding to the point where they genuinely can't even treat the flu, never mind let you have a baby or a heart attack or a broken hip or treat cancer. (All of which are things that have happened to my family in recent years)

    The truth about immigrants is, they are highly profitable for our nation. We don't pay for adult immigrants to attend school for 11 years, we don't give them TB jabs or any of the jabs kids have at birth. We don't care for them at all during the early stages of their life because they aren't here but they pay there taxes. All of which makes them significantly more profitable per head than British born people. Of course a larger population requires a larger NHS but the profits that come from immigration could easily be spent on the NHS but with the Tories in charge, it goes against their main ideology. That's why the NHS are under so much strain, lack of funding, by the Conservatives.



  • @Dan-The-Man I sympathize which your situation, but objectively, how can you talk about the effects or immigration if you freely admit you haven't been affected by it - whether good or bad?

    People have good experiences, some people have bad experiences, that's that nature of the beast - it's why some want to limit it & why some don't & want free movement to continue. You seem to be in the neither category.



  • @NewUser303261 said in Election 2019:

    @Ericali I think at least 99.99% of NHS staff would dissagree. And as someone that worked in the NHS for years but was made redundant when the tories privatised NHS Direct I'd also dissagee.

    The Tories won because the opposition were a shambles. Remainers were arguing with each each about why they can't vote for various parties that are supposedly remain or not. Torys won and lost seats in leave and remain areas. Labour won and lost seats and leave an remain areas. The result shows more that Labour need to completely change their ways more than anything.

    That said, I also realise that the election does kill dead any resonable opposition to brexit at this stage.

    The election doesn't kill reasonable opposition to Brexit. The Conservatives are trying to act like this result gives them a mandate for Brexit but the vast majority of people in the UK voted against Brexit at this election.

    The Conservatives picked up 13.9m votes, Brexit party picked up 650k votes, UKIP, 20k

    Labour 10.3m, SNP 1.2m, Lib Dems 3.7m, Greens 860k, Plaid Cymru 150k

    Brexit = 14.57million
    Second Referendum = 16.21million votes.

    This election clearly showed that the majority of people in this country wanted a second referendum. Brexiteers have banged on about democracy for years but the truth is, we all know they don't give a crap about democracy, if they did, they'd be calling for a second referendum now because that's what this vote showed is the democratic will of the people.

    Where you might be right though, is that under the current circumstances there's not a lot we can do to stop the Tories implementing their policy but my bet is that when the real negotiations fail next year and Boris tries to leave without a deal a sizeable portion of his party will turn on him. Time will tell.



  • @Ericali said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man I sympathize which your situation, but objectively, how can you talk about the effects or immigration if you freely admit you haven't been affected by it - whether good or bad?

    People have good experiences, some people have bad experiences, that's that nature of the beast - it's why some want to limit it & why some don't & want free movement to continue. You seem to be in the neither category.

    I was born in Bradford (locally known as Bradistan) and thats where most of my family are from. I've lived there as an adult too and seeing both extremes of the immigration situation, has given me a broader view of this than many people. I've also... been an immigrant. I immigrated to Scotland for a decade and worked in the US. I have family living in Australia and Spain, with a niece about to move to Africa. I've been treated medically by over a dozen immigrants throughout my life, I've worked with hundreds over the years (and hired a fair few).

    But the point is, our personal experience shouldn't cloud our judgement.

    My cousin grew up in Bradford, he'd have more sympathy for your view point because the vast majority of crime in his area comes from people with different ethnicity. That's simply because the vast majority of people in his area.... are of different ethnicity. It's not because his crime rates are higher. His personal experience has taught him that the majority of criminals are not white.

    Where I'm from, all of the criminals are white... everyone I've ever been in a fight with has been white, the git that burgled my mums house, white. The arsehole who mugged her in the street, white (she's blind btw). The thieves that bring their stolen wares, white. The 3 drug dealers that live on my street, white. A street in my town was listed in the top 10 worst streets in Europe at one point, the Police wouldn't go down the street without back up. Not a single immigrant lived on that road.

    So, my cousin's personal experience has left him racist. When he spots a drug dealer in the paper or a rapist or paedo, he says "get rid of immigrants". If I judged people on their skin colour the way he has, I'd be saying "Get rid of white people". Shouldn't we all just be saying "Get rid of the criminals"?



  • @Ericali the point I take from Dan's point is that while you try and say immigration is to blame for the struggles of the NHS the true story is 100% down to Tory austerity.

    All the evidence suggests that a Tory brexit and a large Tory majority is only bad news for the NHS.



  • @Dan-The-Man while I don't dissagree wit that assessment. It's a very difficult argument to make sound convincing as the accepted narrative will be the seats won over everything else.

    If anything it sums up how poor Labour Have been in opposition of a dangerous Tory brexit. I voted Corbyn twice, but he now is also culpable in the brexit we are facing.



  • @Dan-The-Man "The Conservatives picked up 13.9m votes, Brexit party picked up 650k votes, UKIP, 20k

    Labour 10.3m, SNP 1.2m, Lib Dems 3.7m, Greens 860k, Plaid Cymru 150k

    Brexit = 14.57million
    Second Referendum = 16.21million votes."

    ^^^^^

    C'mon Dan. You seem you have lumped all 10.3m million votes for Labour as stay! 😂

    I'm sure it's just a technical error on your behalf. Labour didn't have a position on Brexit (they sat on the fence) Labour voters are generally split 50/50 between Brexit or Remain & on your propaganda 100% ratio you just squeeze home.

    You usually do better than that in your arguments.... 👍



  • @NewUser303261 said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man while I don't dissagree wit that assessment. It's a very difficult argument to make sound convincing as the accepted narrative will be the seats won over everything else.

    If anything it sums up how poor Labour Have been in opposition of a dangerous Tory brexit. I voted Corbyn twice, but he now is also culpable in the brexit we are facing.

    You can't blame Corbyn for the SNP, Lib Dems, Greens, etc.

    Farage would have split the Brexiteer vote, so he lined up behind Boris and as a result Boris cleaned up the Brexiteers. Meanwhile, Nicola Sturgeon called Jeremy the Devil on national TV and Swinson said he was unfit to lead, which fed the hate Corbyn narrative.

    They did it because it suits the SNP to have a Tory government as it feeds their independence fires given that Scotland never vote Tory and wanted to stay in the EU. The Lib Dems are opportunists who thought they could grow their power, just like they did under Clegg.



  • @Ericali said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man "The Conservatives picked up 13.9m votes, Brexit party picked up 650k votes, UKIP, 20k

    Labour 10.3m, SNP 1.2m, Lib Dems 3.7m, Greens 860k, Plaid Cymru 150k

    Brexit = 14.57million
    Second Referendum = 16.21million votes."

    ^^^^^

    C'mon Dan. You seem you have lumped all 10.3m million votes for Labour as stay! 😂

    I'm sure it's just a technical error on your behalf. Labour didn't have a position on Brexit (they sat on the fence) Labour voters are generally split 50/50 between Brexit or Remain & on your propaganda 100% ratio you just squeeze home.

    You usually do better than that in your arguments.... 👍

    No... look at my words.

    "second referendum = 16.21million votes"

    Which is exactly what Labours Brexit stance was. How many Brexiteers do you know who wanted a second referendum?



  • @Dan-The-Man said in Election 2019:

    @Ericali said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man "The Conservatives picked up 13.9m votes, Brexit party picked up 650k votes, UKIP, 20k

    Labour 10.3m, SNP 1.2m, Lib Dems 3.7m, Greens 860k, Plaid Cymru 150k

    Brexit = 14.57million
    Second Referendum = 16.21million votes."

    ^^^^^

    C'mon Dan. You seem you have lumped all 10.3m million votes for Labour as stay! 😂

    I'm sure it's just a technical error on your behalf. Labour didn't have a position on Brexit (they sat on the fence) Labour voters are generally split 50/50 between Brexit or Remain & on your propaganda 100% ratio you just squeeze home.

    You usually do better than that in your arguments.... 👍

    No... look at my words.

    "second referendum = 16.21million votes"

    Which is exactly what Labours Brexit stance was. How many Brexiteers do you know who wanted a second referendum?

    Well put half of that 10.3m labour votes on top on this election & you get your answer 👍



  • @Dan-The-Man But we can blame him for not being a bigger opponent to the tories handling of brexit over the last 3 years. I understand that given the Labour vote was split on the referendum he was in a difficult position. But the tories repeated faliuer to get brexit through left a wide open goal to apose it in one way of the other. Before this election a 2md referendum would have been very credible. The government became a minority government and was effectively powerless. What the rest of the parties effectively did was walk right into a trap, agree to an election that played right into Boris's tactics and gave him a free large majority.

    I support alot of corbyns policies. But hes made some bad choices in the last few years and it's landed us with 5 more years of Tory and a Tory brexit. It could and should have been avoided.



  • @Dan-The-Man bit this want a referendum, this was a general election, yes brexit may have been at the forefront of some peoples thoughts, but there are many more reasons than brexit why people voted the way they did

    @NewUser303261 you say it is 100% about austerity cuts but that is rubbish. It is not 100% of anything, it is a mixture of things, like being overburdened due to uncontrolled immigration, health tourism (which is a way we can actually recoup lots of costs, but dont) and reduced funding. And while were talking about austerity cuts, have you ever looked into why the tories are doing this? It's because gordon brown as labour chancellor auctioned all our gold reserves in 1999 at extremely low prices and trebled our national debt, meaning any payment we make barely cover the interest.



  • @Ddr said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man bit this want a referendum, this was a general election, yes brexit may have been at the forefront of some peoples thoughts, but there are many more reasons than brexit why people voted the way they did

    I fully agree with you on that but if you listen to Brexiteers, you'd they are treating it like it was a second referendum.

    @NewUser303261 you say it is 100% about austerity cuts but that is rubbish. It is not 100% of anything, it is a mixture of things, like being overburdened due to uncontrolled immigration,

    No...

    Answer me this.

    Every study about immigration shows that immigrants make this country significant profit.

    How the hell does having more money = overburdening?

    And while were talking about austerity cuts, have you ever looked into why the tories are doing this? It's because gordon brown as labour chancellor auctioned all our gold reserves in 1999 at extremely low prices and trebled our national debt, meaning any payment we make barely cover the interest.

    No... We had a GLOBAL financial crisis because billionaire bankers were selling people houses they couldn't afford, then buying and selling the debt. The market crashed and just about every country in the world crashed with it. The Tory's inflicted austerity because the right wing ethos is "I have mine... you are not my problem". So they reduced tax for the rich, slashed services such as the police and NHS then took it out on disabled people with the bedroom tax.

    If you think this is about Brown selling gold, you need to ask why just about every nation in the world crashed.



  • @Dan-The-Man I'm not saying that immigrants dont make us money, my point was that the NHS is overburdened because there are too many people needing the service. When you run a service intended to be for 40 people but actually 60 people use the service it is overburdened, simple as that. And I would imagine that those studies dont take into account illegal.immigrants, money being sent out of the country, benefits claimed for non residents, the cost of extras (things like translators)that we have to provide in all areas, education, NHS etc. It also wouldnt take into account the detrimental societal effect, by that I mean we have so many uk nationals on benefits who could do the low paid jobs if they weren't being done by immigrants, and on top of that, by using cheap immigrant labour this hes artificially kept wages low in certain areas, I have a friend who is a trained chef, spent 3 years studying, his salary is the same now as it was 20 years ago because companies are using untrained foreign labour who are willing to work for virtual peanuts

    Brown sold off the gold reserves prior to the global crash



  • @NewUser303261 said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man But we can blame him for not being a bigger opponent to the tories handling of brexit over the last 3 years.
    I understand that given the Labour vote was split on the referendum he was in a difficult position. But the tories repeated faliuer to get brexit through left a wide open goal to apose it in one way of the other. Before this election a 2md referendum would have been very credible. The government became a minority government and was effectively powerless. What the rest of the parties effectively did was walk right into a trap, agree to an election that played right into Boris's tactics and gave him a free large majority.

    I support alot of corbyns policies. But hes made some bad choices in the last few years and it's landed us with 5 more years of Tory and a Tory brexit. It could and should have been avoided.

    Corbyn had them pinned down. It wasn't until the SNP and LIb Dems made it clear they would support Boris's calls for an election that Corbyn's hand was forced. If they hadn't done that, Parliament would have stayed in deadlock with Boris as a calamity, not being able to get anything through. Corbyn had neutralised the government but he was flanked by the yellow opportunists.



  • @Ddr if not 100% down to austerity, then it's pretty damn close to that.

    It's well documented that where hospitals are overran and understaffed has little correlation with immigration levels in that place. It's also well documented that the NHS could not cope without its workers from overseas.

    Yes the tories came in after the WORLD WIDE financial crisis. Austerity has done our economy no good. It is a political strategy that hurts the poor and vulnerable and finances tax breaks for the wealthy. The country now has more bilianaires but most of the country is poorer as a result



  • @Ddr said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man I'm not saying that immigrants dont make us money, my point was that the NHS is overburdened because there are too many people needing the service.

    You've not made the rather obvious link between money and funding...

    Immigrants make us money... we choose how to spend that money. The Conservatives chose not to spend it on the NHS and as a result, waiting times have gone up, treatments that were available on the NHS are no longer available on the NHS, hospitals like the one in my town are no longer staffed correctly so people in my town need to use hospitals in other towns which puts strain on them.

    The Conservatives are pissing on the country and telling us that it's raining immigrants.



  • @Dan-The-Man dont be condescending it's an ugly trait. I could point out the obvious facts that YOU are blatantly not grasping but I wont as there are more important things in life than having an online disagreement over politics



  • @Ddr said in Election 2019:

    @Dan-The-Man dont be condescending it's an ugly trait. I could point out the obvious facts that YOU are blatantly not grasping but I wont as there are more important things in life than having an online disagreement over politics

    My apologise. I certainly meant no offence.

    It's frustrating when you see someone make a hateful statement like 'immigrants are clogging up the NHS', even more so when the person making the statement has acknowledged that immigrants are profitable.



  • An important factor about a post brexit NHS is that we still need more migrant nurses coming here. The fact is is in the eyes of tr rest of the world, we are now a less welcoming county to come to and work in. Boris can promise as many nurses as he likes but if nurses don't choose to cone here and people here don't choose to train to become nurses then it's not happening.


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.