Reality and Hard Truth

  • I joined the platform in May 2018 in the first 6 months I invested £20,000 and turned this into £40,000 I then withdrew my initial stake of £20,000 not to de-risk but because I was unhappy with the direction of the platform (IPD's). Thankfully I was wrong and the management of FI were correct. The platform continued to thrive and I am well on the way to doubling the £20,000 I left in.

    I would not say I am cleverer or have any special methods that other traders do not have, I have simply benefited from the growth of a brand new product that is disrupting the existing gambling market. Many other traders will have similar or better returns and will admit that the main driver of there profits is simply the product growing.

    Now when Football Index raised funds to develop there product they would have had short,medium and long term objectives and I would imagine all the changes in the platform were part of an original business plan. As they have continued to raise funds and develop the product these changes will be part of a financial plan that was designed a long time ago and is needed to move the product to a profitable sustainable entity.

    As each change has come there has always been disgruntled voices on the forum but if you took your bat and ball home at those points you would have missed out on substantial gains and would now be regretting the knee jerk reaction. I personally regret taking the £20,000 out as I would now have nearly £80,000 instead of £60,000!!

    The gains we have made have been extraordinary and deep down each of us here for any length of time must be laughing at the fact we stumbled on to this as most will have normally been losing money to the bookies. We now have sums of money that if not life changing that can make our lives substantially better.

    However gains and growth like that cannot continue forever and we must understand that the product owners are not here to just gift us money for so little risk. I have posted elsewhere that you must be an idiot if you thought you could continue to make bets where the bookie allows you to keep all the profits but underwrites 95% of your capital by providing the majority of your money back even if your bet is completely useless.

    I personally think covid has accelerated the situation and without it we would have seen the introduction of full order books for the start of the 2020/2021 season with plenty of warning. However the suspension of instant sell was needed to protect our portfolios, if they had brought it back at any point the result would have been carnage with so many traders cashing in at instant sell prices, therefore the next best thing was to introduce buy orders as they have provided some liquidity.

    Unfortunately without sell orders liquidity will be limited and poor and even when they arrive it will not be the supreme comfort blanket that we have had in the past. I can accept this as I have profited greatly from the platform and if you were to look back at my posts over the last year have been suggesting that order books will move the platform to a more modern transparent future but with more risk and lower profits as in effect FI have been feeding our pockets with cash to get the product to a certain critical mass to move to the next phase of there development.

    Now I know there are several vocal disgruntled forum members and I understand you feel let down and are currently financially disadvantaged (I felt the same a while ago). Mostly you all feel that the removal of an instant sell price has changed your bets and yes it has. However we were all playing a rigged game, we put thousands in that could easily double as the house paid us all the gains but we were in effect only gambling with a few hundred quid as we could instant sell and get it nearly all back. When you look at it like that it was not sustainable and maybe you should now be buying premium bonds.

    Therefore for those lucky to have been here for a while maybe you should be thanking FI for the free money and accept that the cushy easy days are slowly going and now we all may need to work a little harder for our money. Profits will still be easy to come by but we will now have to accept that for every 10 big winners we may have a few substantial losers.

    I am truly sorry for those who cannot sell low/medium priced players at prices that seem acceptable or because there are no bids, especially if you are new and do not have profits to offset this against but the platform is moving and maybe we should be being more vocal about the things that we possibly can get changed through group pressure:

    Increased dividends due to increased commission
    Improved player bios
    Removal of retired players
    Better communications

    I would really like this thread to be positive about how FI has improved traders finances and lives and the opportunities it affords in the future, we all know the instant sell removal issue but it has happened so lets look forward.

  • @Fletch
    Agree 100 percent with this and the need to priortise real benifical change needed now for growth.
    One thing I would to your list is the need for mb to be carried out on name recognition only not the archaic full title in headline bs and for the love of god remove the bonus for the word united in media which is incredibly stupid and not fit for purpose on a professional platform.

  • It's dog eat dog out here now, only the TOUGHEST will survive!!!!!!!

  • @Fletch

    Well said 👏. There have been many complaints about altering our three year bets and I have also been unhappy with this at times. But the product needs to evolve and improve.

    If Adam Cole was too come onto the forum and offer each of us a "frozen" April 2020 FI product with guaranteed zero changes for 3 years would we really want that? Personally I would prefer to be part of a platform with order books, improvements, promotions, dividend increases and possibly deposit bonuses.

    All positive changes also alter our three year bets.

  • @Fletch exactly mate well said. Id upvote you twice if i could

    Im currently making a push in my own personal life to be a more positive and happier person so your request for positivity is welcomed by me. If this forum continues its spiral of negativity im not going to interact as much because none of us need that.

    We are a nation of talkers and moaners. We love to complain but not actually do anything, if your problem is with FI take it up with them as it will be more proactive than us all sitting around winding each other up

  • Perfectly correct. Well said that man.

  • Your position is a very fair one & I'm very positive about the direction the platform is going, even if I have reservations about the ability of the current senior management's professionalism, competence & communication abilities to successful achieve the process. I do however acknowledge that it needs to be undertaken in a manner consistent with treating their customers fairly & not simply survival of the fittest & those who snooze lose. After all the future of the platform depends almost entirely on the trust & confidence of it's participants, destroy this & we are all in some trouble.

    Personally I could accept the unilateral removal of IS, even though it appears to have been done in an underhand way (using CV as an excuse, although FI's general handling of the whole affair has been excellent) as a total loss on the affected players would account for <2% of my portfolio & as you say the overall growth has been far greater. I wouldn't however use the success of the product as an excuse to allow shoddy, unfair treatment of users that might otherwise be described as miss selling.

    Many holders with whom I have sympathy would never have paid the price they did or bought at all if FI had not offered the exit of last resort of a substantial IS price, so to unilaterally withdraw it without offering these holders a decent chance to unwind their position is at best questionable but at worst betrayal. I believe the value of such holdings will be relatively small in terms of the market value & to remedy the situation would be well within FI's budget & also discharge their moral obligation to these users. It could easily be spun as a promotion & PR success, as well as the goodwill it would generate (& ill will that would be negated) it would demonstrate to everyone, even those unaffected or thinking of joining the platform that FI were a trustworthy, honest firm that operated for the benefit of all stakeholders, not just their own narrow financial interest.

    I doubt that this issue will simply disappear, especially with the increased scrutiny that gambling is current under from politicians, media & regulators, so if FI proactively deal with it now & turn what could be a major future problem into a PR success then everyone can have a positive outlook for the future.

  • @Fletch

    But I want higher dividends and more bonuses but I don’t want to pay extra commission on ME.
    I also want 3% spreads over 3 years on crappy players that I didn’t know existed, hopefully make money on them for 3 years but with the comfort that I can IS at 3% spread in 3 years time.
    I know FI is a new company and we all have made a shit load money, however, I don’t want any reviews for any change for 3 years as I’ve got a 3 year bet. That 3 year period can only start from when I place bets.

    I still want higher dividends. I will keep money in here as I’ve made a shitload of easy money but will moan and moan continuously about FI and it’s all doom and gloom.

  • @Fletch good to hear some perspective and positivity. I do fear that some of the negativity is compounding or maybe even creating the perceived problem. I've made some excellent returns in the past on sub £1 players (I'm talking about players with transfer potential or maybe a PB/IPO shot, not Iranian full backs on a pump and dump) and all those good reasons for buying are still there and the opportunity to make money on them is still there.

    But I'm loathed to buy more because there seems to be a feeling on the Forum that this part of the market is dead. That spreads and puts more people off buying, people who hold start to panic they'll be stuck with a dud, price starts to drop, etc. But all the good reasons for buying are still there. There remain excellent opportunities all over the market but this negativity is in danger of suppressing that same area of the market that those people are trading in. We are literally talking down and devaluing our own holds! There is no need for the lack of FI backed IS to be a barrier.

    I still feel that much of this will pass when football returns everywhere. I market sold a couple of cheap players at the weekend, FI is still massively fun and remains way out in front of any opposition, so let's get behind it, use the survey to constructively help shape the future and enjoy the ride.

  • @Fletch I think the problem is that everyone looks at there own situation and declares what that individual think we should all do. It's a very selfish standpoint. You are saying that you have done really well and now it's not fair that you have made all this money, now it's FI's turn to essentially make the game fair again.

    There will be people who even in this boom period who will have lost money but I know a few people that joined just before covid put in amounts that they wouldn't have put into bookmakers and are now left with lots of shares in smaller players because they couldn't afford the sanchos and have basically lost a lot of there money because of the removal of instant sell which we were told would stay.

    I love the idea of positivity but that in itself can be a very dangerous thing. We have to be realistic when companys and people make mistakes and we have to talk about it. I'm not talking about doomongering but just talking about how things can be better.

  • Fletch, excellent post. I find myself looking out for what you write on here more and more...

    With regards to the bottom end and people being stuck in their bets. I am one of those people. It relates to 10% of my port value.
    I have been flitting between off-loading at a loss (I suspect I have a flock of market makers circling me like vultures) or riding it out.
    That entire 10% is in one player (approximately £2k). I made this purchase before ME, but after IS had been disabled. I would write to FI and complain, but I do still believe in the hold. I suspect I'd only start complaining if it became obvious I'll never shift him (they are relegation threatened, squeaky bum time.)

    What I will say about that end of the market, is that it would be quite naive to think FI would be willing to let it fade away into oblivion. I suspect, that rather than directly address the IS function, they will instead find ways to stimulate that end of the market, thus giving those stuck in bets at the lower end an opportunity to move them on.

    My gut instinct right now is to pile back into the lower end (most of my ME bids are at that end). The perception of that end right now is that it is dead. In October everyone was saying the same about the top end. Value will move around, it always does.

    I'd suggest anyone who has real difficulty seeing a way out of a bet placed before ME contact FI and begin discussions to find a solution. Personally, I am going to hope my duffer comes good and probably won't be in a position to complain if they get relegated as I have waited too long.
    I'm not sure FI will be in a charitable mood when resolving these issues, but I do think that they will find ways to put value in the players that we feel lumbered with.

    Likewise, ageing players. People see them as terrible holds now. However, I think FI will continue to give a fair old weight to set piece takers. These are usually the more senior members of the squad. Someone said on another thread that average age of PB winners is 28 or something? Keeping value in set piece takers is a smart move, as it adds value to senior players that otherwise would depreciate far too soon. FI will find ways to ensure as much of the market is fluid as possible, surely it is in their best interest?

  • @Tom7471 I'm always accused of being negative at work as I challenge new ideas and ways of doing things. But I believe you need to challenge and question, as it's how things improve. If we always pretend everything is great as it is, nothing would ever get better, so I agree with you on that, but there is a way of doing it.

    I'd have no problem with "I will be using the upcoming survey to ask for FI backed IS to be returned as a back stop, which will return confidence to the market and boost trading at the lower end". That's constructive and something FI can work with. "FI have screwed us, changed our bet, made it impossible to make money, etc. and I'm selling all my portfolio and everyone else should leave cause it's all over Twitter" is less helpful, probably not factually correct and is always going to spiral into an argument. There are ways of making the same point, that would be my argument. If we want FI backed IS to return, there needs to be widespread demand for it. That's not going to happen if we fight amongst ourselves.

  • @NewUser159387

    I agree with nearly everything you say except that they have used the corona virus as an excuse to implement the change.

    FI just like every business in the world has had to react quickly to protect there business. Our portfolios and the platform as a whole were protected by them by the removal of instant sell. It was a great decision at the time as it would have been fastest finger to the exit otherwise.

    They then had the issue of when to reinstate instant sell or to bring forward the 1st stage of order books. Personally I think if they had brought back instant sell the rush to exit would have still be huge so we would still be in a position where it would not have been reinstated. Therefore the safest thing to do was to introduce the 1st stage of order books and although far from perfect it has allowed a small amount of liquidity to the markets.

    I agree they could communicate far better and that is probably the area they have been weakest at throughout the development of the product, however we here on the forum are such a small percentage of overall users and whilst our views are important they will be using data from the whole market that supports the decisions made.

    In the end they have to be a profitable company otherwise the product will simply vanish and if these changes are required for the product to survive then we have to live with it. Yes we can have sympathy but we also must be realistic and I am sorry but when investing/gambling you have to weigh up all the risks and one that should have be thought through by everybody before making a bet is what if I cant instant sell?

    To put it into perspective anybody who has a personal pension, ISA or Unit Trust that currently has units in a property fund cannot buy or sell those units as the funds are suspended as they are impossible to value at present. This has been the case since the onset of the virus and will be for some time yet. The Virus has brought about many unintended consequences that nobody could imagine but highlights that where we try to make profits those profits come with risk.

  • @Tom7471 but ask yourself what difference does it make to sit around complaining to others and dragging everyone else down?

    Take the issues to FI and demand answers because the point has been made here now and we all understand that people have been affected in different ways but sitting around moaning amongst ourselves wont improve anyone’s situation, its not selfish to ask others to move on or be more proactive its just the way it is and you either try to do something about it or you accept it

  • @Black-wolf I have taken the issues to FI and nothing is being done. Like I have said many times the idea of football index is amazing but the lack of communication and there delivery is hard to try and be positive about.

  • @Tom7471

    Tom I have just replied to New User and I think the main problem is that there a vast amount of people who just do not accept, appreciate or understand the risk taken.

    This is not an investment platform where the investments are in actual trading companies, or in property or in some asset that has value. We are simply gambling on a footballers performance and in my opinion due to the easy profits made that has been forgotten along the journey. I really do understand how much pain so traders feel but the fact is that we all discounted or forgot about the risk involved.

    Most of us invested small sums to start with then increased as time went along for no other reason than it was easy to make money. If the bank is paying you 1% and the stock market yielding 3% and you are returning well in excess of 25% on anything else surly you ask yourself is this too good to be true and what are my risks!

    So yes it seems unfair but it was predictable and surly understandable.

  • @Tom7471 said in Reality and Hard Truth:

    @Black-wolf I have taken the issues to FI and nothing is being done. Like I have said many times the idea of football index is amazing but the lack of communication and there delivery is hard to try and be positive about.

    Can't argue with that, communication is my biggest FI gripe by a long distance

  • @Tom7471 then keep pushing them and make them improve or at least prevent the same issues happening again. To keep pushing the same points within a forum is at best only going to get you sympathy and what does that achieve it wont ever result in the change you are looking for as there is no other advice than can be offered.

  • @Baydog

    I try to anticipate things and look forward not backward and currently am making investments based upon the following:

    In August all 5 leagues will be back in play
    FI will increase PB dividends for the new season
    FI will have increased platform numbers by a huge advertising push for the new season
    Sell orders will be in play which will create more liquidity in players
    Europa League gets non PB league players back in the game
    Transfer window may run until October

    All these points will create value and opportunity so I am currently hoovering up the unloved and unwanted at huge discounts in readiness to sell on for profit when August comes around.

    I am buying no more than 300 as any more would be too much risk but I currently have the following all purchased at much lower prices:

    Issa Diop

    I have already moved on half my Gerson and Ighalo for over 50% profit and continue to put bids in for others at very low prices.

    I actually see this time is one of opportunity rather than one of doom and gloom.

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