How much are FI making?



  • Something that's always concerned me was to how much FI are actually making out of this. They've obviously been in a huge investment phase to get players in for some time and will expect to make good profits at some point, but when I look at my portfolio... I do wonder how much they are actually making.

    So, I thought I might do a bit of a breakdown and we can compare styles and see if they are making much money. I've written the calculations and worked off percentages, since we all invest at different levels. See how your numbers compare.

    Go to https://www.footballindex.co.uk/account/transactions/summary and change the dates to be your start date to today. The calendar isn't great as the arrows move position depending on how long the month name is! and you have to go all the way back the all the way forward again... but.. then you have your figures to work with. You might want to use Excel for this!

    Duration: 2 Years
    (First transaction to now)

    Deposits: 100%
    (Deposits - Withdrawals)
    (This is your key figure - how much you've actually put in. This is your 100% and guide for the rest)

    Dividends + Bonus: 29.65%
    ((Dividends + Bonus + Manual Adjustment)/ Deposit) * 100

    Portfolio Value: 206.11%
    ((Portfolio Value + Cash) / Deposit) * 100

    Paid Commission: 0.82%
    (Commission / Deposit) * 100

    Sell-Up Commission: 4.12%
    ((Portfolio Value * 0.02) / Deposit) * 100

    So, there you have it. Overall, I'm up over 100%, even after all money due to be paid to FI is taken out. They've paid me nearly 30% of my investments in dividends and expect to receive 5% back!

    If my understanding is correct, the new market selling will allow them to take 2% from the buy and 2% from the sell. So that should be a big boost for them, whilst the players should still get value. But there is a huge hole there in terms of profitability, unless your numbers are coming out very differently?



  • @Mere.Mortal I have been asking about there profitability for a while with not many answers. My guess is that they are running at a decent loss at the moment but they are very cash rich.

    I have messaged someone on twitter who should be able to shed some more light on the finances but he hasn't got back to me with the information yet. When he does I will let you know.

    My guess is that they are going to have to do much more to turn it into a profitable company long term.



  • Most people’s profit is almost entirely on paper and it’s not FI’s liability to pay that out. That’s settled through others valuing your bet and buying it off you and it is important that people remember that when talking about their profits.

    They’re only on the hook for dividends. I think somebody started a thread a few weeks ago which asked whether people’s commission paid was higher than their dividends earned and in about 80% of cases people had paid more to FI than FI had paid to them.

    I’m sure they were and probably still are loss-making, that’s the nature of a start-up.

    The key for FI being financially sustainable is for their dividends paid to be less than the commission earned. They’re not stupid, they will know this and if they’re not there already they’ll be working towards it. There are of course other overheads and plenty of other income in the way of issuing new bets but fundamentally the business is sound as long as commission > dividends paid.



  • @Mere.Mortal money you've made from cap app is because other people have bought the same players direct from FI at full market value. Any dips along the way are caused by sells for which FI receive commission and then they get more money again as the player exits the dip and surpasses previous peaks, therefore the profit you cave made thru cap app represents a virtually incalculable sum of money paid direct to FI from its customers.

    I gave a much more detailed explanation here

    https://forums.footballindex.co.uk/post/258448

    About 33 posts in



  • @TT said in How much are FI making?:

    Most people’s profit is almost entirely on paper and it’s not FI’s liability to pay that out. That’s settled through others valuing your bet and buying it off you and it is important that people remember that when talking about their profits.

    They’re only on the hook for dividends. I think somebody started a thread a few weeks ago which asked whether people’s commission paid was higher than their dividends earned and in about 80% of cases people had paid more to FI than FI had paid to them.

    I’m sure they were and probably still are loss-making, that’s the nature of a start-up.

    The key for FI being financially sustainable is for their dividends paid to be less than the commission earned. They’re not stupid, they will know this and if they’re not there already they’ll be working towards it. There are of course other overheads and plenty of other income in the way of issuing new bets but fundamentally the business is sound as long as commission > dividends paid.

    This...

    I don't think people truly understand that you are betting on players to win dividends. And that bet is traded.

    There are a lot of players on the index that will never win a dividend. Every time that a new share is bought in this player that is 100 percent profit for football index. That is profit that won't be picked up by people doing commission v dividend sums as it won't be realised until the player retire. And that is before the future is traded between traders bringing in commission. Football Index will be sitting on an astronomical amount of profit that people can't see. Look at all the 30 plus players on the index who won't come anywhere near to returning their price in dividends.

    The other thing to bear in mind is that FI were paying out maybe 5 percent dividends across the index. That isn't a huge amount. If they invest the money that is put in wisely then they may be able to pay dividends purely from return on their own investment.



  • @Mere.Mortal

    My most recent figures, covering 2019, are as follows:

    "Total FTD's (first time depositors) for 2019 was 110k (2018 : 51k). Monthly actives peaked at 47k (2018 : 21k). At the end of 2019 we had 112k open accounts with portfolios or cash balances (2018 : 53k). The number of shares bought by traders in 2019 was £337m (2018 : £104m) In summary the business has more than doubled in size in the period."

    Whilst not specifically mentioning profit FI are currently undergoing exceptional growth, which is far more important at this stage of platform development, as stated above all current trader paper profits will need to be sold, so 2% commission will be payable at that point. Every future sold in that £337m turnover creates a credit on their balance sheet/bank account so they are in a fairly healthy cash flow position as well. They have already had at least one approach/offer of investment at a significantly higher company valuation than when they raised equity funding in Nov last year (which was 4x higher than the previous in Sept 2017), so I'm fairly confident things are looking very positive, despite the short term set back of CV.



  • @Geronimo159387 Instead of comparing commission to dividends paid. We probably should be comparing dividends paid to (commission + total spent in new as opposed to recycled futures). That gives us a more sensible figure in terms of how much money they are making).



  • But what about all of there other outgoings such as wages, order books (if we see them), marketing, promotions (10% net buys, 10k bonus drop, super match day points ect) and lots of other things they have to ship out for. Must be some fairly hefty costs?



  • @Tom7471 said in How much are FI making?:

    But what about all of there other outgoings such as wages, order books (if we see them), marketing, promotions (10% net buys, 10k bonus drop, super match day points ect) and lots of other things they have to ship out for. Must be some fairly hefty costs?

    That's true.

    My point was that the income they have is far in excess of just commission. Their income is the total bets made (new futures) plus commission.

    You see a lot of posts such as the OP which misunderstand their income streams. Their primary income will be the actual bets themselves as opposed to comission when those bets are sold on.



  • I worried way more before ME. I actually complained to my account manager when divs were raised in Nov, as I couldn't see how they could remain profitable, It has since been explained to me that CA money isn't from FI coffers, What worried me before was the liability of having to buy back bets. It is a bizarre paradox, the less easy I can see myself making money, the more safe my money feels. I went in making 15% per annum on my rental property, so I would have been happy making 50% on FI with risk factored in. I made 100%, and it felt risky.. Now I can see how they are going to be profitable, I'd be more happy risking more to make less. It's a paradox



  • @Tom7471 10% net buys are met with huge sell offs once the promotion ends, and where I believe FI must recover much of these loses?



  • @Martin-M

    Is there a promotion?



  • @MI25 No, not just now. Was just replying to Tom’s post. Sorry if I got your hopes up?



  • @Martin-M

    Lol - i feel there needs to be some.positive announcements amid a lot of negativity etc



  • Must be at least one share holder on here that could give us insight into annual reports?



  • They will be much more profitable now they have taken themselves out of the instant selling but I still feel it must be a hard thing to make profitable. There may be a situation with the matching engine where some players won't be selling for anywhere near the market sell price. Say someone who is at 80p market sell value but people may only be buying him for 40p FI will only receive the commission on that 40p which much be an issue.



  • @Westy said in How much are FI making?:

    Must be at least one share holder on here that could give us insight into annual reports?

    They're not obliged to publish a full annual report like a large PLC would be, as a current shareholder myself, I shared the limited financial details in the earlier post.



  • @Geronimo159387 cheers just seen that



  • This has come up a few times before. I can't see how FI isn't profitable.

    They will obviously have costs to cover for the platform, advertising, wages etc, but other than they are selling bets in virtual players, which are basically thin air. It's not like they have a complicated supply chain and logistics to sort out.

    As others have said, they only pay out to us when a player wins dividends. Capital appreciation is not covered by FI, it's from other people sticking their dosh into your player.

    It's a genius idea.

    Right FI, now I've talked you up (again) please can you give us tiered PB and a goalkeeper only category. Cheers 👍



  • @Tom7471 said in How much are FI making?:

    There may be a situation with the matching engine where some players won't be selling for anywhere near the market sell price. Say someone who is at 80p market sell value but people may only be buying him for 40p FI will only receive the commission on that 40p which much be an issue.

    They were previously only making comission the sale not the buy. Now they are (or going to after this into period) take 2% on the seller side and the buyer side so no worse off in your example and will be better off if the player is sold anything about 50% market value


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