The IS button is no longer a last resort!

  • As heard on the latest #FigCast, I think #FootballIndex traders should start using the IS button as a tool in their trading, rather than a last out

    With the matching engine, traders will need to train themselves to start using IS - more than they did prior to its implementation.

    What are your thoughts? Have you been using the IS button differently now that there's a willing buyer on the other end?

    I've been personally using it a lot more, especially when the spreads have tightened up!

  • @The-FIG yes been selling small numbers if the best price is decent and I see value elsewhere.

    I’m here for the long haul so not bothered to much by small dips etc.

  • Market sell is largely redundant at this point and those claiming a lack of liquidity haven’t come to realise that yet. Plenty of money to be made trading the spreads with the volatility of the IS price.

  • @MikeWagner For sure, decent amounts of trading happening in between the spreads.

    Market sell soon to be made redundant either way with sell orders coming in!

  • @The-FIG

    Ive been using it to look at the offers at the top of the 300 and in fairly regular instances, been able to sell off 20/30 shares at less that 1 or 2% spreads when the IS shown based on the top 300 avg is considerably greater.

    Ive tried to only sell off on spreads less than 2% but there have been a couple of occasions where i have seen an opportunity and took a greater hit to get on in (5% - 7%), which have worked out by and large.

  • @The-FIG

    I agree with what you're saying. The frustration for me though, is one that I can highlight with a player I currently have listed to market sell, but it's the same with anybody who's listed.

    I've got a player listed to market now and he has been listed for over 2 months. He hasnt budged. He has had brief periods of demand in that time having qualified for an IPD during the CL/EL playoffs, and actually won positional PB the same night. He jumped about 5p. I knew that was nowhere near enough for mine to go because I knew I was at least 25p deep.

    But I do think I could likely have sold a portion of my 400 at a decent spread at that moment but couldnt check, and even if somebody else had checked for me, I'd have had to unlist the 400 to sell maybe 30 at a decent spread, then re-list the remainder.

    As pointed out in the thread, Market sell is soon to be virtually redundant but I still have him listed in the hope that he gets bought on mass tomorrow if the div increase is percieved as good. He is undoubtedly recognized as a good PB player, so I do think theres some sense in leaving him listed at this moment, but being that he is a player with genuine value, it may be that I could have sold my 400 in 10s 20s and 30s at a decent spread over the 2 months+ hes been listed. Trouble is it's not practical because you dont have that visibility.

    The ME has made MS difficult because every buyer wants to use it for discounts, but is in itself, not an appealing sell mechanism for many players because the bids placed arent great in many cases. Thus long and pretty forlorn sell queues, with would be sellers blind to small outlier bids that may be deemed more acceptable than the displayed IS.

  • @The-FIG

    I ditched market sell in favour of IS a month or two ago... It is a little more time consuming than what I am used to, but it is not unusual to find bids close to market price at opportune moments. I used the old IS most of the time when selling so it has not been a major change for myself...

    One of my biggest concerns was how easy it would be to shift weight on IS. To begin with there was not much depth so I had been sticking to relatively small numbers and flipping them on IS when someone puts in a decent offer.

    I have now started to move back to my old approach of holding higher numbers in players, as the depth of bids from market makers is much more encouraging of late. It is quite hard to find players with less than 300 bids on them, even the dross (albeit a low ball offer in many instances).

    I'd say the MM's also have a mandate to squeeze the spreads and force bidders to go higher when demand is high ie match days, then adjust them mid/post match to prop the player up with low offers so that traders can fill the void in-between the spreads. I think the big change for me is I am becoming more of a post match buyer than a pre match buyer.

    I have never been much of a short trader but I can see a lot more opportunity and appeal in short trading with the ME / OB in place.. CA no longer relies purely on a players value going up, it is as much finding opportune moments to buy and sell within the spreads.

  • What would be really useful is for FI to give us the operationality to divide our portfolio into groups - one such group I would create is my 'sell list', so I can keep checking this for small spreads. Right now if it's up for MS you can't see the sell price so you need another window to check, and if it's not up for sale there's no way you can remember which ones you want to shift unless you have another document there.

  • @Baydog I'm not sure I entirely agree with you about the depth of bids being there as yet, of my 45 player port, 8 have offers with less than 300 and some of these are mainstream players who are considered fairly good PB holds

  • @Ddr

    I suspect that the more mainstream players don't require the same level of assistance on the MM front, as there is usually going to be trader interest in them... It is the lower end where I have seen quite a big difference. I prefer to trade sub £3 and I am active across the market, especially sub £1.50.

    It felt like with IS gone and low bid depth that this part of the market was the most screwed by the ME. However I am now moving back to that area, and I would not risk it if I thought that potentially I had no out on my holds. The players I am trading in all seem to have minimum 300 and that was not the case until quite recently, so my confidence in that part of the market has been restored.

    Ultimately I don't care about taking a hit or two if the bet doesn't pan out. As long as I am confident I can get a good chunk of my money back via IS to put elsewhere then I will take the risk

  • @The-FIG said in The IS button is no longer a last resort!:

    As heard on the latest #FigCast, I think #FootballIndex traders should start using the IS button as a tool in their trading, rather than a last out

    With the matching engine, traders will need to train themselves to start using IS - more than they did prior to its implementation.

    What are your thoughts? Have you been using the IS button differently now that there's a willing buyer on the other end?

    I've been personally using it a lot more, especially when the spreads have tightened up!

    Since I've been here for nearly 2 years, the old IS was mostly the only way I sold, 99% of the time. I've only started using market selling since covid to get back out my temporary money used in the last big deposit bonus. I've used IS now a few times to flip a player to generate funds to get on another, mostly at a lost despite there being a big CA on them due to large spreads.

  • @MickTurbo
    Mick the trick is to keep a few single shares available and not put the full list up for sale.
    I have been using is regularly to skim the top bids on offer at anything less then a 5 percent for holds I want out of ... you can regularly offload in quantities if you do this daily at a much higher IS price then the one listed.
    I think Is works well in its current format for popular holds

  • @BMCG yeh this is what I should have done. I wont with this player now because as long as market sell remains an option, I have every expectation that he'll sell in the next month but yeh, in future what u describe will very likely be what I'll do

  • I have always used instant sell from the time I started on here and I have never stopped. I don't see the problem with losing money on some players to try and make more on others. Some of the goalkeeper spreads are quite small so I'm in and out a lot. Not sure about the 2% buy commission what that will do but we will see.

  • @Baydog what sort of volumes are you trading in and out between the spreads to make it worthwhile mate?

  • @Palmwa43

    I try to do it in 50 - 100 shares, but really it depends if people are willing to sell. Often it ends up being quite a random number. I put in an offer for 100 Cafaro from Reims at 59p after the game this weekend, and was matched on 42.. He is on set pieces so chances are at some point people will be wiling to bid near market price of 77p - hopefully with a goal or assist during 5x IPD possibly even above the current market price... We're not talking big money, but it all adds up. If I manage to sell those 42 cafaro shares at market price I'll make £7.56 off £24 which isn't bad - plus potential IPDs over the next month

  • @Baydog thanks mate, I always think I must be doing something wrong with my approach on short term trading and it feels like unless you go for it big time it’s hard to make money. Your example there makes sense and as you said few of those a week and your laughing. Cheers 👍🏻

  • @Palmwa43

    I've never really enjoyed short-trading, but this new aspect is way more tactical than the old system and that appeals to me.

    There are some players I think it will be possible to rinse and repeat all season. Dolberg for example. His spread was within 1p/2p in the build up to the game and was 30p after the game. It is now back to about 10p.

    This scenario will often be the case with many forwards and mids in the 50p - £2 range if they keep increased IPDs, you just have to pick the time that others are off-loading to buy (Sunday - Weds probably best time).

    A good sign to look for is if a player has a surge in price in the build up to a match. If the player does nothing in the game then there will be people looking to off-load them, so wait for the spread to widen and then make an offer

  • @Baydog top advice mate cheers, probably seems quite simplistic to most but I’m still learning the ropes. Appreciate it 👍🏻

  • @Baydog Great example to use; held him over the summer. Topped up when he was 99p etc on the ME - sold the lot of him at £1.20 on the ME and picked up a few post game for £1.03.

    Like you say, just got to time it. Been using it in lower quantities but this was the first time I've recycled a bigger holding & not life changing but does definitely add up.

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