What can be done?



  • I'm a big fan of the platform but like many suffering at the moment. Every day feels like another set of losses with no sense that FI is listening or putting out a vision to address the issues. At the simplest level, more people are selling and leaving than investing. This creates a snowball of negativity and until it reaches rock bottom nobody is going to seriously invest to a downward market.

    I feel like FI are trying to move from a ponzi-style investment to a longer term yield investment. Previously, most people made money because they brought players, the market expanded and the values went up steadily and dividends offered a bonus. It was easy to make a profit and had to change so the move to a more sustainable exchange was inevitable.

    However, I no longer know who the platform is trying to have as it's customer base. In the past, I felt it was the average football gambler looking for a safer bet or the fantasy football fan looking to put some money behind their knowledge. I recognise that this base has limitations but we are naive if we think big investors are suddenly going to rock up.

    Liquidity needs to be addressed. You can bring in money makers or expand the customer base by entering new markets but you need a market not in free fall to attract them. Liquidity in the index is spread very thinly. There are 3300 players on the index (for comparison the London Stock Exchange had 2600).

    I don't want to be negative so putting forward some ideas.

    1. We need to condense the liquidity into a fewer set of players. Look at Aymen Mathlouthi. A 36 year old Tunisian goalkeeper who has never played in a top 5 league or in Europe. Presumedly bought at the last world cup. Somebody is trying to sell about £400 worth of shares. No body will ever buy them. It's lost money for the index and will go into the FI coffers. There are probably 1k Mathlouthi's. FI could hold their hands up and say we have changed the market, we have removed instant sell, we will give you Mr Mathlouthi holder £350 in FI Vouchers that you need to reinvest over the next 30 days. FI could then remove 1k-2k players off the platform.

    I would hope this would clear some of the backlog of people trying to sell their shares in bigger players and for at least a couple of months stabilise prices whilst you get new investors in and reverse sentiment.

    1. We need to slow down price crashes. The position we are in now is the ultimate goal - a free market that sets prices - but there wasn't a long enough transition to let people get out of bad position . Many exchanges will stop trading in an asset if there is a drop of 10%. I don't know what could be done or the level required but possibly a minimum bid price based on a % of the average buy price.

    I would hope this allows investors to get out of their position and reset their strategy whilst bringing prices down slowly to a free market level.

    1. We need reassurance from FI that their is capital to ensure that dividends will stay the same through the 3-year bet. It is inevitable that if people keep pulling their money out that FI will need to lower dividends. There is a real lack of faith in FI at the moment because of poor comms and significant changes to the platform. The Cuadrado case in point.

    I want to be able to buy Pogba et al and feel assured that the T&Cs I sign up to will remain for 3 years irrespective of how the platform is performing.

    1. Lastly, we need much better and more honest comms. A recognition that it's been a turbulent year and a vision for how the issues will be addressed. A rhythm of communication. For example, IPO's and position changes at set points in the season, a state of the market update etc. I was particularly irked with the bringing in of the benchmark figure. The calculations are fake and misleading. Nobody wins from thinking they have more value in their portfolio than they actually do. At best, it is irresponsible from FI.

    The current customers on the platform are the best advocates and ambassadors for the platform the more they are brought in the more they will feel invested.

    A cautionary fifth point, investors need to be a little less naive about dividends. 504 players have won a dividend in the past 12 months. 249 in the last 3 months. Only 23 players have secured over 50p worth of dividends in the last 12 months, 7 in the last 3 months. The losses on the vast majority of those players in the same time period is considerably more so you need to plan for money to be in the that player for a long period.

    I'm not a big investor but been on the platform for 2.5 years and invested time and energy. I want the platform to succeed but the platform won't exist in a year unless some significant short-term changes occur. If I was more entrepreneurial, I'd be looking at the challenges FI is facing and fancy my chances of setting up a competitor.



  • I think we should add a mid price between the sell and buy price and trades can only be made at the mid price. The buy and sell mechanism would be the same but trading could only be done at the mid price. So if you want a player you could still leave a bid but you would only get him if the mid price dropped to that level and the same if you want to sell, it would only happen if the mid price reached the selling level.



  • @Marcjuliofc one of the most well reasoned posts I've seen on this forum. Really good points.

    I especially like the FI vouchers for dead players.

    In terms of capital, they are in the process of raisinng £60m so they should have a pretty good runway.



  • @Marcjuliofc said in What can be done?:

    I'm a big fan of the platform but like many suffering at the moment. Every day feels like another set of losses with no sense that FI is listening or putting out a vision to address the issues. At the simplest level, more people are selling and leaving than investing. This creates a snowball of negativity and until it reaches rock bottom nobody is going to seriously invest to a downward market.

    I feel like FI are trying to move from a ponzi-style investment to a longer term yield investment. Previously, most people made money because they brought players, the market expanded and the values went up steadily and dividends offered a bonus. It was easy to make a profit and had to change so the move to a more sustainable exchange was inevitable.

    However, I no longer know who the platform is trying to have as it's customer base. In the past, I felt it was the average football gambler looking for a safer bet or the fantasy football fan looking to put some money behind their knowledge. I recognise that this base has limitations but we are naive if we think big investors are suddenly going to rock up.

    Liquidity needs to be addressed. You can bring in money makers or expand the customer base by entering new markets but you need a market not in free fall to attract them. Liquidity in the index is spread very thinly. There are 3300 players on the index (for comparison the London Stock Exchange had 2600).

    I don't want to be negative so putting forward some ideas.

    1. We need to condense the liquidity into a fewer set of players. Look at Aymen Mathlouthi. A 36 year old Tunisian goalkeeper who has never played in a top 5 league or in Europe. Presumedly bought at the last world cup. Somebody is trying to sell about £400 worth of shares. No body will ever buy them. It's lost money for the index and will go into the FI coffers. There are probably 1k Mathlouthi's. FI could hold their hands up and say we have changed the market, we have removed instant sell, we will give you Mr Mathlouthi holder £350 in FI Vouchers that you need to reinvest over the next 30 days. FI could then remove 1k-2k players off the platform.

    I would hope this would clear some of the backlog of people trying to sell their shares in bigger players and for at least a couple of months stabilise prices whilst you get new investors in and reverse sentiment.

    1. We need to slow down price crashes. The position we are in now is the ultimate goal - a free market that sets prices - but there wasn't a long enough transition to let people get out of bad position . Many exchanges will stop trading in an asset if there is a drop of 10%. I don't know what could be done or the level required but possibly a minimum bid price based on a % of the average buy price.

    I would hope this allows investors to get out of their position and reset their strategy whilst bringing prices down slowly to a free market level.

    1. We need reassurance from FI that their is capital to ensure that dividends will stay the same through the 3-year bet. It is inevitable that if people keep pulling their money out that FI will need to lower dividends. There is a real lack of faith in FI at the moment because of poor comms and significant changes to the platform. The Cuadrado case in point.

    I want to be able to buy Pogba et al and feel assured that the T&Cs I sign up to will remain for 3 years irrespective of how the platform is performing.

    1. Lastly, we need much better and more honest comms. A recognition that it's been a turbulent year and a vision for how the issues will be addressed. A rhythm of communication. For example, IPO's and position changes at set points in the season, a state of the market update etc. I was particularly irked with the bringing in of the benchmark figure. The calculations are fake and misleading. Nobody wins from thinking they have more value in their portfolio than they actually do. At best, it is irresponsible from FI.

    The current customers on the platform are the best advocates and ambassadors for the platform the more they are brought in the more they will feel invested.

    A cautionary fifth point, investors need to be a little less naive about dividends. 504 players have won a dividend in the past 12 months. 249 in the last 3 months. Only 23 players have secured over 50p worth of dividends in the last 12 months, 7 in the last 3 months. The losses on the vast majority of those players in the same time period is considerably more so you need to plan for money to be in the that player for a long period.

    I'm not a big investor but been on the platform for 2.5 years and invested time and energy. I want the platform to succeed but the platform won't exist in a year unless some significant short-term changes occur. If I was more entrepreneurial, I'd be looking at the challenges FI is facing and fancy my chances of setting up a competitor.

    Good post with some sensible and realistic ideas 👍



  • @Marcjuliofc

    Short term fix, to stabilise the market; make EVERY current future held AUTOMATICALLY IPD eligible (until end of Jan/Feb/season, pick a date) also anything bought until end of Dec qualifies. From Jan onwards anything sold loses this eligibility but anything held continues to earn those dividends.

    Main benefits it will stop most of the constant undercutting due to refreshing &/or trying to switch from one player to another for the IPD's, the remaining sellers will be genuinely wanting out of that player but will be counter balanced by the new demand created from the IPD income, fresh ££ introduced via IPD income would help forced sellers who really need the money for whatever reason, so reducing PANIC selling.

    Everyone will know that selling pressure is reduced, dividend income is increased & buying now is a better call (instead of waiting until next day/week when the price will have dropped further). This will help to dispel the constant current negative market sentiment & start towards regaining trust & confidence.

    Downside it will cost FI a fair bit of ££ but they need to make a positive statement IMHO & this would/could be a big one & if it failed & the drops continued we really would be in trouble but I suspect it would achieve much needed market stability. this then needs to be built upon with medium & long term improvements for the platform to have any chance of future growth, that the strength of the concept warrents.



  • We need to condense liquidity ASAP.
    Remove IPD and increase TOTM. make the top end as valuable and liquid as possible. we arent ready for ipd and we wernt ready even on the old system



  • @kaka8

    If you remove IPD you kill the value of around 90% of the market. Yes you'll see some gains in the big names but the collateral damage will be immense.



  • I dont even believe they will have the liquidity for more than 200 even in 20 yrs.



  • @kaka8

    Removing IPD's will kill 85%+ of the current players STONE DEAD, simply no reason to buy or hold, further increasing panic selling , price falls & condemning the index to forever being just 300/400 players capable of competing for PB/MB/TOTM.

    It would also finally betray all the traders who bought the 3000+ IPD players, currently on the index, to the extent I doubt the platform could survive, so I don't think it's a great idea personally.



  • The system is rigged in favour of FI until that changes players will continue to depreciate. They would have to scrap the 'buy now' option in its current format and their ability to mint new shares but of course they won't do it because thats their income gone. For this to work the supply of shares circulating in the market needs to be limited, you cannot have an unlimited number of shares circulating in a market and expect that market to appreciate, thats just not how it works.

    They would have to implement a system whereby every single trade happens between users. In its current format the house always wins, it is just not a fair system and does not favour the punter.



  • rover on twitter made a good suggestion about removing bids when thers a spike



  • People are naive, seems like a quick flip from Cole to bohan, slowly go bust and take everyone’s money job done. Karma is definitely a thing though so it will get whoever stole all us fools money.



  • They need to sort this mess out.. Its been in decline now every day for a month.. I am not investing anymore with it in this state..
    Keep thinking there are bargains to be had but you purchase them and then their value goes down even more..
    If this rate continues the player values will be next to nothing and the product well will it survive.
    So depressing every day seeing this....IPD's and PB's don't cover these loses... Sigh... Don't manic Mr Mainwaring...



  • @Geronimo159387 I recently wrote to FI about a similar idea. It was about a month ago and the situation has obviously worsened since then, but my idea was use this window between the November and March international breaks to open up IPD's for all shares - newly purchased or existing holds.

    The market is now centred pretty much exclusively on dividends returns. Now, with a good 75% of holds, you find yourself playing catch-up to break even on a bet you placed under the old market mechanics. Outside of an elite group of PB performers there are very few players who will return enough to do that, even with the PB/MB yields available. But this isn't wholly on us as traders, these might previously have been good holds based on capital appreciation through performance, upcoming transfers, international call-up etc. This was people using their knowledge of football - as the product was advertised to them - to guide their portfolio construction.

    Imo without another set of major restructuring changes, the IPDs are the best tool FI have in their armoury to get things going again. It gives people the chance win back some of the lost ground and reassess their ports without having selling for massive losses or waiting for a year as their only options. It also buys FI more time to regroup ahead of the season run-in/the Euros/the new season. I'm not having that they're totally happy with how things have gone so that window of opportunity for them could be invaluable. If they did this, they could let the market tick over for 3-4 months without the constant drops, management of complaints from their user base, and people leaving the market for good. A period of golden respite.

    This would obviously cost them, but in part it is also them returning to market to a level that matches trader expectation (i.e. closer to where it was before). I don't think it would be any more or less expensive than 5 x IPDs for a 1-2 month period as we had before either. Finally, it also equals the playing field between FI and traders for a short period whilst a better route forward is established. Sure, some traders are better than others, sharper than others, and shrewder than others. Those guys will have come out of this better than most, but to a man pretty much everyone who deposited most of their cash pre-OBs will be struggling either all-time or on their current port. FI needs to make that right. No matter what type of business you run - an exciting new gambling platform, a leading financial firm, a coffee shop, a hairdressers - you simply cannot leave the majority of your existing customer base feeling disillusioned, confused and pissed off. This is what concerns me as trader and my investment the most.

    I have a 10k port and will definitely not be selling up. I want the product to work and think the concept is groundbreaking, and over the two years I have been trading have recommended it to many folk. I have some stinkers in my port, sure, but I also have players who represent good value over the full duration of the hold under the new model, and also those who were good picks under the old model. I have topped up throughout the OB implementation period to try to shuffle my pack, and strengthen my position in certain holds in terms of having a lower buy in.

    However, I have reached the point where I no longer can or want to deposit any more (£10k was the maximum I ever intended to put in), especially as things continue to fall further. I've done my best to make the most of the position, shown loyalty and taken a bloody nose for it - as all of us have who have stuck around have - and now I need to see something from them to justify that. The IPD shout is one idea, but there are plenty of good shouts posted daily on the forum, twitter and discussed on podcasts. Heck there are 4 or 5 in this thread! I'm still confident next year will turn the tide but patience is dwindling market-wide and confidence is at an all time low. Until FI do something to give us a chance to manage that transition from Sell Queue to OBs better (more time, a mechanism to support liquidity in weaker PB holds, better education for traders, better communication as to the product roadmap etc) it will be a long road back for traders.

    For now thought keep as calm and patient as you can, and trust your holds will return something for you at some point; The Every Dog Has His Day Rule. Cengiz Under for me is one such example. 25% back in one gold day star man win. I held Under at £1.25 having originally bought under the old mechanics. Imo, a good hold at the time - I felt he had a move in him (little did I know at the time it would be to my club!), a demon of a left foot, takes set pieces etc. Above all else, he's capable of being that match winner thus a reasonable PB hold. Am I confident he'll win PB again? Yeah, he probably will. Will it be enough to even break even? Possibly, but it will be a long and potentially fruitless wait which damages liquidity and trader sentiment. Is it cause for hope? Most definitely



  • I think all dross players with zero chance of being traded,or sold ,should be liquidated at the average price between purchase price and rock bottom price,so that guy with£400 in a 36 yr old gk can get 50% of his money maybe as you say as a non withdrawble £200 which needs to be wagered x5.Alternatively,do good housekeeping and remove all the dross players and replace with young players with potential to play in big league first teams in the next year or so.I agree this app is pants but it can only get better or it can shut so as long as you dont put any new money in then we all have to take responsibility for our losses even though its not really 100% our fault,and we need to either leave or move on and wait for better times when covid is gone and when people feel like investing in this app again.



  • @NewUser693253 this is the biggest problem. There’s too many shares in circulation for the amount of users. It’s very simple, and footstock had the same issues. They bought back players and if fi did the same and took shares out of the market then it could flourish again. They are doing the exact opposite at the minute they are minting new shares and ipo players, without buying any back.

    Until they sort this forget about much cap app, (there may be a bit on today’s prices as div returns too big at min)

    Agree with the op they need comma and to confirm that divs will either stay the same or increase in the summer



  • @Gboar Yes they should be burning shares instead of minting new ones in the form of market makers but they don't show any inclination in addressing the real issues. They've had plenty of time to think through different strategies to restore some sort of liquidity to the market, IPD's being another one



  • @NewUser693253

    Getting Market Makers on board is essential, but they are obviously finding it a lot more difficult to agree deals with third party liquidity providers than they anticipated. This probably does have a lot to do with Covid as the type of institutional investors who probably were targeted to do this have probably become a lot more risk adverse over the last 8 months or so.

    The whole transition to order books should have been delayed until after Covid, and I'm talking like a year after Covid. But FI wanted to remove that liability from their balance sheet so they could show a tidy profit, no doubt triggering payouts to the shareholders and AC.



  • Agree with many of the comments in here. I think the main issue is really how the price is set, leaving it up to traders in its current form is purely driving prices down and no sticking plaster (IPD eligibility for all) will fix that long term. The fundamentals of the platform need to be rethought if IS is not available. I think FI need to action a few mechanisms (which have all been mentioned):

    Limit availability of shares per player. This is how stocks in real markets work. New share releases to be issued on an IPO basis (see below) when demand greatly outstrips available shares.
    A buy back of shares to reduce the volume currently in the market. I honestly can’t see market makers coming on board in droves with market in its current state.
    Get rid of the dead shares, why are retired players even on the platform still?? FI can launch IPOs but they can’t clean up the current base. I agree with a previous suggestion that some compensation be offered to those holding.
    Speaking of which, IPOs should be issued on a limited volume at fixed price, all can request shares and they’ll be divided amongst bidders. Again, mirroring current real markets.
    Additionally , FI need to think up ways of making players appealing beyond the current div structure. Additional fantasy football style competitions or special events (top goal scorer, most red cards, goal of the season winner, I don’t know... come up with some new engaging events that engage a wider player base and keep people interested).



  • @GeoffS Whether they had those deals in place or not is irrelevant as they should be having enough capital to mitigate against periods like this. I don't think they can go about relying in external money to pump the market, which as a matter of fact was what they did and went horribly wrong.

    If they had any decency now would be a good time to show it... I mean not even a Christmas promo with fat dividends of some sort??


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