minting and the price curve

  • HI all,

    I am a new trader and curious about some details about FI - I hope some of the more experienced traders can help!

    I have been reading through the terms + conditions and came across a section entitled 'Share Issuance and Price Curve' - it is a little confusingly written but it seems to suggest that FI layer the offers in the order book according to their own algorithm.

    The phrase 'These Offers will be the number of shares required to move price up by one penny should there be no other traders within the market' confused me too - is the 'move up price by one penny' based on the buy price which is calculated on VWAP of xxx (anybody know the xxx?) offers? And in that case is it that they determine the number of shares somebody would have to buy to shift that up (varying by price point) and add that many?

    Is this only done after IPO or is it an ongoing process? I note that the rules state that these shares get priority over trader shares.

    I see mention of a 'price curve' which determines how many shares at each price level, the T+Cs say this should be public info but can't find it - does anybody know where it is?


  • I also notice that when trying to sell players via listing an offer there's a maximum sale price - how is this determined and does it relate to the minting process?

  • Septimius Severus next?? ..

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  • This post is deleted!

  • @Munchie63
    Dont always trust in the Horse

  • @MarkAntony

    This is one hot potato, FI promised to publish & be transparent with the full details of the issuance curve but despite numerous traders chasing it up it still remains a mystery - so make of that what you will.

    FI issue new future at 870/715 per penny depending on the price of the player & it USED to be when they hit ATH price, which was fair enough, it's FI's most lucrative revenue stream & they deserve to reap the benefit in a rising market (even just player specific rises). The problems arise from now having crashed the market, largely through their own incompetence & mismanagement, when a player rises in response to on field performance when does/should this new issuance kick in?

    There are numerous examples of FI flooding the market with 870/penny fresh issuance on players that are way below existing holders net buy price, which not only denies those holders any significant price rise (to help recoup their current loss) but means ANY plausible exit needs to undercut the FI issuance price & guarantees that holder an often significant loss. Some argue that FI have bought back lots of previously issued futures either by IS (before they abolished it) or via LP001 being active in the market & that has dropped the NET ATH price.

    Whilst this is undoubtedly true to an extent, I doubt it fully accounts for the new low issuance price trigger, I suspect it's simply a badly programmed algorithm, that kicks in whenever it sees unusual, excessive demand spikes, like after a great on field performance but until FI come clean, as they had promised, it's just speculation atm. John Stones is currently issuing at 90p which is well below his ATH price.

    Why does this really matter??? In OB's traders now carry 100% downside risk, FI have done NOTHING to support prices since removing their support for IS at the start of the year & traders now carry MASSIVE losses as a result but now when any price does rise FI jump on with fresh issuance denying traders much of the upside benefit of those price rises & essential "bake in" those trader losses. That's not a fair or sustainable position for the market & if it continues many will just sell up & leave & it would be hard to blame them- it could be resolved by transparency (which FI have refused so far to provide) or allowing trader offers to take priority over FI issuance neither of which seem to be happening.

    Traders could accept 100% downside & sharing upside risk with FI if they knew what/how/when the issuance happened as they could plan a strategy to accommodate it. Currently it just seems another random, opaque & mistrusted method being used to inadvertently screw traders over, which whilst trader trust & confidence is already so low, does nothing to rebuild it or help the market recover.

  • as the poster above has alluded to nobody other than FI is really sure what their policy on minting shares is but what we do know is it isnt good for the customers

    unsurprisingly their T&C's around it are incredibly vague and basically read as though they can do whatever they like whenever they like

    to put it quite simply you have more chance of FI sticking to a 1 year timeline than prices ever rising to previous levels as they will just flood the market with more shares it doesnt need

  • @thelossadjustor.. The poster above??.. thats funny.. ! you are even talking to yourself now? good grief sir, this is getting ridiculous!

  • @Geronimo159387 thanks, fantastic response! Looks like the recent rule change caps them to 30k over 30 days but being distributed how they like via minting 'ootions' accruing at 1000 a day but it seems this will be at any level they like. Is that your reading also?

  • They can only mint up to 1 million shares.

    "We will only ever issue a maximum of 1 million Shares in any given footballer"

    It is short term pain for long term gains. Once the customer base and revenue grow then player prices will grow as fewer shares are mined and as they approach 1 million shares.

    FI are claiming that there won't be an over-supply which means prices will stabilize and be less volatile over the long term.

    "To give our customers assurance that there will not be an over-supply of Shares in the market, which may be important when traders have the opportunity to ‘enter’ their Shares into future tournaments and competitions that we may introduce."

    Long term play very much alive at FI

  • With Sancho at 930k and gone up a quid, 700 odd minted per penny increase surely means 70k odd new minted and thus Sancho probably above 1M now? So after cut off date for new system he is probably capped? Interesting!

    Do FI show total shares issued per player anywhere?

  • @MarkAntony T&C`s (s)A5 (ss) 4.6 ??

  • @Karl not to be a pessimist...but FI have said they would/wouldn't do a lot of things and look where we are really think they will stick to that rule of no more than a million?

  • @MarkAntony said in minting and the price curve:

    With Sancho at 930k and gone up a quid, 700 odd minted per penny increase surely means 70k odd new minted and thus Sancho probably above 1M now? So after cut off date for new system he is probably capped? Interesting!

    Do FI show total shares issued per player anywhere

    ?I doubt they minted any sancho shares yesterday, theyll want to do that at as high a price as possible. Yesterdays price rise would've been delisting of offers and_or trader offers being accepted

  • @MarkAntony

    Surprisingly relevant given the FI announcement!! Basically just confirming & incorporating into T&C's what I suspect has already been happening. The 1 million cap is a good idea in principle but in reality the biggest "bubble" player still hasn't hit that, so it basically means unlimited supply can be issued at any time or price of FI's choice, or in reality when the algorithm identifies a set level of demand. The 1000/day is also misleading as it can accumulate over the month, so again in reality could be upto 30k/day (with a rolling monthly limit of 30k) so again unlimited, as almost no occasions would buyer demand warrant 30k fresh futures.

    This is TERRIBLE for traders as basic economic theory shows an asset with unlimited supply will be able to absorb any level of demand without rising in price. So traders sat on huge losses (due to FI decisions crashing the market) will be both denied an exit, as FI algorithm absorbs the buyer demand on good performance & denied any price rise as what ever demand appears can't overwhelm the issuance supply.

    Couple that with the withdrawal of IPD's effectively making 80%+ of players almost valueless & so destroying any reason for buyers to want to buy/hold them it means liquidity will disappear in all but the top 300/500 players & holders will have to wait for another of FI's broken promise (we will introduce liquidity across all areas of the market) to maybe get out of anyone else.

    Overall a terrible result for anyone holding players outside the top 300/500 IMHO.

  • @pompey88 Absolutely not and to do so would be detrimental to the product. I fully expect them to increase this limit once they have enough users to warrant so.

    If they restrict their growth to 1 million shares then the platform will stagnate once there are enough traders involved.

    Think of it as if Google only had 1 million shares in existence, the price of that share would be astronomical

  • @Geronimo159387 Disagree with you here as you are presuming the same 300/500 players will always be in contention for dividends.

    If there is one thing I have learnt from this game is you never know who will win.

    Your presumptions above are short term based and you are not taking into account future growth in users.

    Without future growth, you would be correct but the chances FI are not going to grow there customer base is virtually nil.

  • @Karl there wont be future growth anywhere near the level required to ascertain the volumes needed for 1 million shares

    FI is 6 years old its had its glory days , it burns through customers at an absolutely fucking astonishing rate and its just become 100X harder to sell the concept to anyone with half a fucking brain cell

  • Those who are looking to get out of FI for good, you will get your chance over the next 12 months as prices will start to rise over this period. However, you might be better in being proactive and start reducing your liability in your current portfolio to meet with your exit strategy.

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