FLYING: Is Football Index Financially Viable?

  • We're all enjoying making money at the moment in this soaring market, myself included. We want this to continue, but most of us who've been trading for 5 months or more, know that a flat/bear market will arrive eventually.

    This is a wonderful product with unrivalled returns compared to the risks. But how long can it last? Critics of FI believe this is a glorified pyramid or ponzi scheme, where those who join first, make the most money and there's a constant need to recruit more members to avoid collapse. I'm not sure FI is one of those.

    However, there's a little red flag. They've chosen to register the company in Jersey, where financial transparency obligations and regulations are light. It's well known that many dodgy companies have chosen Jersey to register their business. That in itself, means nothing in regard to FI.

    It is very difficult to obtain financial information about a company in Jersey. I've been researching in the past week on how to obtain the latest Annual Accounts for FI. I went to the Jersey Financial Services Commission (JFSC)
    and all they had was an Annual Return, a C20 form giving the number of shares there is in the company , its address and members: Fame Ventures Ltd (who are hosting the coming London Meet). You can buy an original hand written version or computer printout of the form for a small fee. The registry of JFSC holds the computer version. That's it. No Annual Accounts/Annual Report and Accounts/Annual Statement of Accounts. No Credit Report.

    The European Business Register (EBR)
    is a database that holds the financial data and position/credit reports of companies based in 25 European companies. Only two companies are registered to have access to the EBR for the UK: KYCKR and kompany. A fee is payable for the documents they hold.
    KYCKR: Only hold the C20 company registration form! No Annual Accounts/credit report.
    kompany: Only hold a "Registry Check". The same useless information on the C20 form!

    Conclusion: If the critics are correct, and this is a pyramid scheme, then if a time comes and the company is about to collapse, we have no warning of this because no one except the directors are privy to the financial position of FI. If a collapse occurs, IS will be suspended. Only the money in your account (balance) by law cannot be raided by FI. An Annual Accounts will give investors a true picture of the financial state of FI, its cash reserves, creditors, liabilities, debtors and the plan for the year ahead.

    If FI want us and future investors to invest long-term with them, they have to provide us with a copy of their Annual Accounts, so that at least, we can make an informed decision.

    I'll bring this up at the London Meet. That means the crap FI Beta site and GKs have to be shelved.

  • @Londoner It's definitely worth a thought for the meet however they don't have to give you direct answers,this might not be beneficial to us at the minute compared to the other questions?

  • @Londoner its not a pyramid scheme as dividends give each player a genuine value and clear market cap. It is underwritten by those dividends

  • @Noirx4 Be a pretty shit pyramid scheme anyway as the blokes at the top don't own any shares in the players because they can't play.

    It is fair that people would like to know the financial health of a company they have money tied to though.

  • Yup, I wrote an email to FIG about this discussing a few things. He made a good point that all business rely on supply and demand. When ppl want something the prices go up when they don’t the prices go down. When the influx of traders slows- which may be 1 year, 5 years, 10 years- you will no longer see the crazy capital appreciation and the average trader will need to become more savvy- picking good dividend returners and future stars whilst they are still cheap. You will need to work harder for your profit.

  • @Londoner Don't think it's a red flag you suggest. Pretty standard and 'tax efficient'.

    True you're investing in the company more than any particular player. But the risk is more that the company goes into administration, rather than they run off with the money. You're never going to get accounts off them, but you just have to take a view with what's out there, and I'm pretty confident the company are doing fine at the moment.

  • With dividends creating value for every crash in the market a rise will always follow as traders buy undervalued shares. That cycle will continue to happen.

    FI are making money hand over fist at the moment, no one needs to worry about the financial security of the index

  • @Londoner has done a good work. Raising the question on annual accounts/reports in the comming London meet is really a good point. Many people here also want to hear from FI.

    However, I think that the idea of this business is as simple as making money by getting the sell commission minus the pay-out dividends. And the more people come in, the more buys and sells are & the bigger amount of commission they make. I also see their points on giving a 3-year limit of holding a player and 30-day limit eligibility of G&A dividend.

  • Not much help to this thread but whilst at the meeting I think it’s important to discuss The contact us part of football index , I’ve seen a lot of people struggle with email contact surely with the new volume of customers they should have a live chat at least to deal with problems quicker as this could put off new people joining

  • As @Noirx4 says, the inherent value provided by dividends means FI is clearly not a Ponzi scheme, so no need for anyone to embarrass themself by suggesting that at a trader meet. As also mentioned above, the registration in Jersey is bound to be for tax reasons, which is not something I really approve of, but I'm not principled enough to take a stand about it because I like FI too much.

    You could ask them about publishing accounts, but the fact is they have no obligation to do so and the answer will be, "We have no intention of publishing our financial accounts currently, but we can assure you the company is in good health, experiencing a period of record growth in new sign-ups and will be increasing marketing efforts and looking to expand to other new international markets in future … onwards and upwards!" If that's a genuine cause for concern for anyone, unfortunately there's not much they can do except take their money out as I really don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

  • i can sort of see PPI & car accident phonecalls in 20 years time oh and those ones about Spanish Time Shares on Talksport stating.... "Have you been stung by Football Index"... "You can claim back your losses on a no win no fee basis"...

    John Motson (now 130) claims ignorance to being the voice of the index and tries to sue instabook (like Martin Lewis) for having his face on many more resulting football scams???

  • I have had these concerns and have set a limit to my account so other savings go to a secure pot elsewhere.
    If they could make the state of the business more public, it might attract bigger buyers or more buyers.

  • @Westy same here and completely agree. Many of us would love to invest more but the lack of transparency in FI finances is a clear deterrent.

  • All valid points. A very important factor for me increasing my investment was FI making it beyond the 3 year startup period. If you look at the amount of startups which fail in the first year, second year etc, FI has done well to be where it is and the fact that it can attract large investment or fund big advertising campaigns suggests it is in a good position. I don't know of course, but for me the risk is much lower now than in its first years and much more secure. Credit to those early investors though for believing in the product. They deserve their returns.

    Besides, I think FI's accounts would be rather unique and difficult to comprehend due to the vast amounts invested, which is still held by FI, the balance structures and relatively low payouts, but with a 3 year obligation to fulfill.

    It would be interesting to know the share structure of the company as well. I should admit to not knowing anything about the betting industry standards, but comparing it would be useful for performance analysis and security. Again, not knowing a great deal, but I haven't heard of a betting firm going into administration recently? They tend to make very good profits over the long term.

    I think a bigger risk is a future buyout by either a big betting firm or similar which could really change the direction of the platform if not handled well. At which point, it may be worth a rethink and shifting elsewhere. For the short term though, the rusk for me is low because of the growing popularity which would always attract investment if required.

  • There's quite a few small, independent gambling outfits that don't make it. FI seem to have got over the particularly risky period though. It's obviously different to a traditional bookies because of the nature of money "locked in" to the bets as futures, but your money that FI holds is far safer than it's ever been.

    Funnily enough, the main danger now as I can see (from within at least) is if they expand too aggressively riding the current wave. Should also consider the idea is most probably to sell the company to a big industry player at some point.

  • I dont think many changes will happen this year, in the interview with FIG it seemed like the order books is becoming a big job and that will be 2019 major change along with share split.

  • Many thanks to everyone for your calm and balanced replies. Keegan's Bluff mentioned selling to one of the big betting companies. Strange as that seems, if such a thing occurred, I would be more confident regarding FI's financial stability.

    Look at Bet365. As they are registered in Gibraltar, they are on Companies House and their financial status is publicly available. They made headline news last year, when their CEO awarded herself a £200m salary after the company turned in a £600m profit. If Bet365 bought FI, then unlike what happens often when a huge company buys a smaller one, I don't think they would try to transform FI into a miniature Bet365. It wouldn't make sense. They would have to make FI a wholly owned subsidiary of Bet365, and leave them as they are as this platform provides something different from other betting platforms. Bet365 would provide the resources to cope with demand. E.g. recruitment of staff. Staffing levels may be the reason for a deteriorating customer service these days.

    Look at Facebook. After they bought Instagram and WhatsApp, those two companies remained unchanged and their services continued as normal. There's no reason FI cannot remain as is if acquired by a large company.

  • @Londoner said in FLYING: Is Football Index Financially Viable?:

    Look at Facebook. After they bought Instagram and WhatsApp, those two companies remained unchanged and their services continued as normal. There's no reason FI cannot remain as is if acquired by a large company.

    possibly not the best day to pick this example, news broken they are to be merged by the Fifth Columnists that are Facebook.

    FI will be pretty much set for life if they are bought out (as will their share-holders), but I can only imagine the edge for users will get dramatically less. that's all in the future, and speculation still. just enjoy it while you can i'd say.

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